The Creation of Adam and Eve, mosaic
Golda Manoharan And this is what Pope Francis said, “Evolution in nature is not inconsistent with the notion of creation, because evolution requires the creation of beings that evolve”. So I ask, what is the precursor of the human being and where is this supported in the account of Creation as outlined in Genesis?
Abe Arganiosa The Catholic Church is not opposed to Evolution instead we oppose the Atheistic Evolution. We believe that the development of the world and its destiny are effects of the powerful operation of a Divine Maker [Creator] and that things didn’t happen by accidental Chance but by Reasonable Plan of that Creator.
Golda Manoharan And I contend that the two are not compatible, nor consistent with each other.
Abe Arganiosa THE ORIGIN OF THE HUMAN PERSON IS GOD. But of course we believe that God also used the process of development and growth as we observe in nature.
Golda Manoharan Darwin’s theory of Evolution states that apes and humans descended from a common ‘ape-like ancestor’. How does this not conflict with the Creation account ?
Abe Arganiosa Please read the answers given to you. The Atheistic Evolution is incompatible with the Catholic Faith but not Evolution itself which simply states that things are evolving, for instance a tree can become an ash later on when it dies and the log was burnt by fire.
The Catholic Church teaches that the human person or the human race came from the creative power of God.
Golda Manoharan Abe , I started out reading it, thanks for the link. Why is there no mention of the ‘evolution’ of human beings in Scripture
““When we read the account of creation in Genesis, we risk thinking that God was a magician, complete with a magic wand, able to do everything. But it is not like that,” he said. “He created living beings and he let them develop according to the internal laws that he gave each one, so that they would develop and reach their full potential.”..Pope Francis
Abe Arganiosa Well Golda Manoharan I hope you also didn’t read in the Bible that the human beings came from genes of both the male and the female. Have you read the EGG CELLS in that same account? Have you read about the journey of the Sperm to fertilize the Ovum?
Read again, may be you can find any mention of Egg Cells, Genetic Engineering, Fertilization, Chromosomes, etc.
Golda Manoharan Yup, I’m a doctor and am FASCINATED by the human body, how a SINGLE chromosomal anomaly can cause an abnormal syndrome. None of those processes you mentioned EVOLVED, did they?
Abe Arganiosa MY QUESTION TO YOU, HAVE YOU READ THE CHROMOSOMES IN THE BIBLICAL ACCOUNT? Did the Bible mention Genetic Engineering?
If you are a Doctor that is great. Praise the Lord. You must be more knowledgeable in Science and Medicine than many of us. But, have you read your scientific terms in the Biblical Account?
Golda Manoharan Which are you talking about Abe, chromosomes per se OR genetic engineering?
Abe Arganiosa Both… So what is your answer Golda Manoharan? Have you read them in the Genesis Account?
Donald Hartley There is the difference from Macro and Micro Evolution.
Golda Manoharan No Abe, HENCE this discussion.
Can you please answer my questions…what was the precursor of Eve ( human ) ? Adam? Or another organism?
Abe Arganiosa Ok… so since you have not read those scientific terms in the Biblical Account of Creation surely you know already why you also didn’t find there the term evolution of man. But, we know that the human persons are growing organism and are evolving also. From childhood to adulthood, from maturity to old age, from life to death. From Parents to Children… Brown parents produces whiter colored children, short parents can produce a taller kid.
What do you mean by Precursor?
Golda Manoharan That is not Evolution
Abe Arganiosa Well, that is Evolution. Evolution is not limited to the Darwin’s view of it. What kind of Evolution that you want? Do you want MONKEY Evolution?
Donald Hartley Yes, it is true that Pope John Paul II recognized an ‘evolutionary’ process in creation since the beginning. Where does Evolution differ from accepted scientific reasoning taught in public schools and even some private schools. There are two principle views in debate on Evolution are Micro, the Catholic version, and Macral, the Darwinist position.
Golda Manoharan What did human beings evolve FROM? ( precursor). If it were ‘ape-like ancestors’, how is that compatible with the Creation account, which CLEARLY states that God CREATED Man from the DUST OF THE GROUND?
Donald Hartley Is the Genesis account of creation literal? Were the days truly 24 hour periods, or can they represent a period? St. Peter writes, “But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day”. God is not bound by time.
I believe in Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve!
The point is, Micro Evolution can fit here and the Biblical account is not compromised. The significance of Adam is not lost. Why are Americans generally larger today than the average Chinese. It is because of diet, this is Micro Evolution.
The cross breeding of animals within their respective family or world is again Micro Evolution. Through cross breading, we have seen evolved faster horses, larger horses, shorter horses, even dancing horses. The same can be said for dogs, cats, cattle, sheep, and anything you can imagine. This is micro Evolution!
Abe Arganiosa Well, our teaching simply states that first human person was created by God. That’s it. NO MORE, NO LESS. If you have any question about the Precursor, then ask the scientists about that. Our Pope was speaking as a Teacher of the Faith. How about you what is your Position? Do you believe in the Monkey view Precursor?
Donald Hartley This differs greatly from Macro Evolution which is the teaching that life evolves from one life form to another such as; man grew from apes, and ultimately evolved from some lower life formed from the oceans.
Dominick FreeGrace Macelli 2 Peter 3:8, “… one day is with the Lord as a thousand years …“. Because of this, they think the days could be a thousand years, or perhaps even millions of years. However, if you look at the rest of the verse, it says, “… and a thousand years as one day“.
Question: Doesnt this cancel out the argument!
Question: Doesnt this cancel out the argument!
Golda Manoharan Donald , is the ‘God made man from the dust of the ground ‘ literal or not?
Donald Hartley It is literal, Adam and Eve are real persons, but remember when Moses wrote the Genesis account, he was going largely by oral tradition.
Jesus personally quotes back to the Adam and Eve account and gives it the foundation for Marriage now. If Jesus was not truthful here, that would seriously put a lot of doubt in who Jesus is.
Abe Arganiosa Golda Manoharan, It is Literal and Spiritual. Literal because the human body literally turns to dust in death but it is much more than that. We also believe that he got a spirtual soul.
What we observed and what is definitive so far is that things comes out from their own kind. Humans from humans, dogs from dogs, cats from cats, etc. Do you have proof that Monkeys really became Humans?
Golda Manoharan 1 Corinthians 15:49-“who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear[f] the image of the heavenly Man
Donald Hartley At the resurrection, we will be given a glorified body… Yes, we follow Christ and will be like him.
Golda Manoharan Read ‘man of DUST’…and then explain to me why you believe that Adam and Eve were literal
Abe , was the human body MADE from dust, yes or no???
Donald Hartley To say that creation is an accident is like comparing someones tennis shoes believing they in time evolved to fit my feet. Macro evolution challenges many doctrines such as Original Sin. If Adam and Eve did not exit, then Marriage would have no divine relevance. The overall facts point to God as Creator.
Golda, are you using 1 Corinthians 15:49 as to mean that Adam and Eve were not real?
Golda Manoharan No, Donald, I am asking if it says we are made from dust or not. And THEN, the reason you beliver Adam and Eve are literal.
Donald Hartley 1 Corinthians 15 as a chapter is addressing Christ as the first fruits, and the resurrection of the body. I believe that Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary and given a body.
Golda Manoharan 2 separate questions
Abe Arganiosa Read the verses completely. It is stated there HE CREATED THEM MALE AND FEMALE. So a COUPLE OF MAN AND WOMAN.
Donald Hartley We are born from dust. At lent, we remember “man you came from dust and to dust you shall return.
I believe Adam and Eve are literal.
Abe Arganiosa We are made of dust because you return to dust. You are not turning into IRON OR STEEL. Did your grandparents turn to GOLD?
Golda Manoharan 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord[e] from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear[f] the image of the heavenly Man.
Abe Arganiosa HA HA HA… I THOUGHT YOU ARE IN GENESIS… NOW THAT VERSE IS ABOUT ADAM AND JESUS.
Golda Manoharan WHY do you believe so Donald ? You mean those were their REAL names?
Donald Hartley St. Paul writes, “The wrath of God is indeed being revealed from heaven against every impiety and wickedness of those who suppress the truth by their wickedness. For what can be known about God is evident to them. Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what he has made. As a result, they have no excuse, for although they knew God they did not accord him glory as God or give him thanks. Instead, they became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless minds were darkend. While claiming to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for the likeness of an image of mortal man or of birds or of four-legged animals or of snakes”.
Golda Manoharan 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord[e] from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear[f] the image of the heavenly Man.
Abe , you have failed to answer my questions
Abe Arganiosa You are not answering our questions also. DO YOU THINK THAT YOU ARE GOOD IN ANSWERING QUESTIONS? NO.
You are fond of asking questions but when questions are thrown at you you are not answering.
Golda Manoharan Donald , two real people called Adam and Eve actually existed? Why do you believe this? Sounds like a fairy tale? I asked you WHY you believe so? WHY are they literal?
Abe Arganiosa Your question is whether man came from dust literally. We answered YES. HAVE YOU READ THAT?
Donald Hartley I stated that I believe Adam and Eve is literal, I also stated we came from dust. How else can you state that?
Adam and Eve comes to us through God’s word as given through the oral tradition and written scripture. How else do you find it?
Abe Arganiosa Well, where did you come from? Did you come from a male alone or a female alone? YOU COME FROM A MAN AND A WOMAN. That is BASIC GIRL. So we say that the origin of man was a MAN AND A WOMAN. What is your problem?
They are literal because MAN RETURNS TO DUST in death. So that is where he comes from. If not in dust where did he come from? DID MAN TURNS INTO MONKEY IN DEATH? NO. HE TURNS TO DUST.
Golda Manoharan Abe , so man was MADE FROM DUST, you say?
Donald Hartley I believe it because God said so. That is why I believe it. He was there all through the creative process.
Abe Arganiosa DUST AND THE SPIRIT GIVEN HIM BY GOD. NOT DUST ALONE, GIRL. READ AGAIN. YOU ARE NOT A GOOD READER.
Golda Manoharan Donald , and. God says he made man from the dust of the ground and Eve from his side…do you believe it?
Abe Arganiosa Ha ha ha…. YOu are not capable of refuting our answers and answering our questions. Ha ha ha… Are you really a Doctor?
Donald Hartley The Lord formed man out of the clay of the ground and blew into his nostrils the breath of life” Golda, are you refuting this? By creating eve from the side of man, that has the same source of creation. When a baby dies, it turns to dust as well.
Abe Arganiosa If she refutes that it means she denies that she BREATHES. Ha ha ha
Golda Manoharan Of course not. I believe every word as it was written. Do you, Donald ? Benjamin , please note personal and antagonistic remarks byAbe Arganiosa
Donald Hartley That is what we are defending, you seem to be the one questioning the reality of the subject matter?
Abe Arganiosa Well, if that is the case read carefully. We kept on answering about the literal thing and yet you keep on asking. So please be so kind to read our responses well.
We asked you if the Precursor of Man is Monkey or not. Where is your answer?
Excuse me… You keep on bombarding us with questions and we are answering then you do not answer our questions. Now you pretend offended?
Donald Hartley Abe, this is typical when a person is agenda driven and not involved in an actual discussion.
Golda Manoharan Donald , defending ? Then you are opposed to Pope Francis’ statement that I have posted above?
Donald Hartley Not at all, Pope Francis is not giving the Macro Evolutionary belief, he is acknowledging the Micro set.
Abe, this shows that Golda was not looking at the points.
Your argument is with Moses, he was going by the oral tradition and understanding that was given him at the time.
Abe Arganiosa Where are your answers to our questions? You only want to ask questions and you are not answering our questions. ADMIN, what say you? What is for you the Precursor of Man? Is man made of dust or of Gold? I demand answers from you… If you want to ask and ask questions learn also how to answer.
Golda Manoharan In the following statement, Heather Clark forgot to change the term “divine”:
Pope Francis continues, “The Big Bang, which today we hold to be the origin of the world, does not contradict the intervention of the DIVINE creator but, rather, requires it. … Evolution in nature is not inconsistent with the notion of creation, because evolution requires the creation of beings that evolve.”
Pope Francis continues, “The Big Bang, which today we hold to be the origin of the world, does not contradict the intervention of the DIVINE creator but, rather, requires it. … Evolution in nature is not inconsistent with the notion of creation, because evolution requires the creation of beings that evolve.”
This statement, Donald ..can you please tell me if you adhere to this statement while at the same time defending the ‘God CREATED man from dust ‘ belief?
Abe Arganiosa I have noticed that you are not answering your own questions. You are not giving to us your position.
So, what is your problem with that? Pope Francis simply states that things are evolving and we dont have problem with it. He didn’t say we beleive that monkeys are precursor of man.
Donald Hartley Golda, the Pope is speaking to Micro Evolution.
Abe Arganiosa The problem is that Golda is only ASKING US. But she does not give her position.
Golda Manoharan And that would then lead us to the question, what beings did humans evolve from?
Abe Arganiosa See, she refused to answer questions she posed another question. Ha ha ha
Hello Admin, is this your style here that some members ONLY ASK QUESTIONS?
Donald Hartley Sure, there is a definitely an evolutionary process that began with the creation of man. There are a number of influences, environment, social as well as scientific.
I only heard of the literal Adam and dust questions.
Golda Manoharan I asked this question WAAAAY UP in the thread…scroll up and read, Abe, it went unanswered
Abe Arganiosa We answered you question. WE DID. Our questions are not being answered. WHERE DID MAN COME FROM? Dust or not? Is man from Monkey or not?
Golda Manoharan Okay, Donald, so ‘evolution requires the creation of beings that evolve’…..isn’t Pope Francis then endorsing the evolution of man from a precursor ?
Donald Hartley Did the Lord establish the earth in 6 – 24 hour days, I can say yes according to Catholic tradition and faith, but at the same time, if it turns out to reflect a period of time, that is not beyond possibility. I personally hold to the 24 hour day. But if you do not, it really matters not. What matters is now and we are here now.
Abe Arganiosa Ha ha ha… she is not answering our questions. SHE ONLY POSTS QUESTIONS. Ha ha ha
We answered you question. WE DID. Our questions are not being answered. WHERE DID MAN COME FROM? Dust or not? Is man from Monkey or not?
The ADMIN is now SILENT FOR HER. Ha ha ha… Ha ha ha… the Lady in Question is only capable of asking questions and not in answering us.
Golda Manoharan Abe , if you will stop for a while, and think you will be able to see that if man was CREATED from dust, then he CANNOT have EVOLVED, from apes ( actually, ‘ape- like ancestors’)
Abe Arganiosa If man was created in dust he cannot evolve? How about you? Are you not turning into dust later yet you evolved from your parents?
Donald Hartley Golda, man is evolving now even as we speak. Why are oriental men smaller than American men by average?
Abe Arganiosa But, STILL YOU ARE NOT ANSWERING US. Golda Manoharan WE WANT ANSWERS PLEASE … If you can formulate questions fast you can also formulate answers fast. USE YOUR BRAIN THE OTHER WAY PLEASE
Golda Manoharan Abe , this is the last time I will answer that question…RETURNING TO DUST IS NOT EVOLUTION
Abe Arganiosa THAT IS NOT AN ANSWER TO OUR QUESTION? WHAT IS THE PRECURSOR OF MAN? Man returning to dust is a PROOF that man is made of DUST.
WHAT IS THE PRECURSOR OF MAN? Please learn how to answer also Golda Manoharan
Golda Manoharan I told you..I think you have difficulties understanding, Abe. Man does NOT have a precursor. The. Pope is wrong. He was CREATED from the dust of the ground. He did not ‘evolve ‘ from dust
Abe Arganiosa Man does not have a precursor? SO YOU ARE AGREEING TO US CATHOLICS THAT MAN CAME FROM GOD?
Golda Manoharan Egad….someone help him!!!!! ( Abe)
Abe Arganiosa Ha ha ha… We told you that we believe that man came from God the CReator. So do you agree or NOT? HA HA HA YOU ARE THE ONE WHO IS IN NEED OF HELP BECAUSE YOU CANNOT ANSWER OUR QUESTIONS. YOU ARE BEING CAUGHT IN YOUR OWN WEB OF QUESTIONS WELL ANSWERED AND REFUTED. HA HA HA… NOW, YOU ARE NOT PREPARED BEING QUESTIONED THE WAY YOU ARE DOING IT. HA HA HA… YOU ARE BEING FRIED IN YOUR OWN OIL. HA HA HA…